Season 3 Episode 2: Cleopatra

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Segment 1: Introduction (0:00)

Brendan: When you think of Egypt, what first comes to mind? 

Cuddy: Pyramids?

Julia: Mummies?

Brendan: King Tut?

Brendan: While all of these are important symbols, there’s no way you forgot about one of the most famous Egyptian figures: Cleopatra. Constantly referenced throughout modern culture and media, the Last Queen of Egypt has captivated the interests of so many people today. Yet, our perception has not always been this way. In fact, immediately after her death, it might have been the complete opposite. 

Intro Music

Brendan: Hi, my name is Brendan Rathier…

Cuddy: My name is Cuddy Steadman…

Julia: And my name is Julia Xia…

Brendan: And in this podcast, we’re going to discuss, debunk, and debate some of the largest topics surrounding Cleopatra. From famous Roman philosophers to Shakespeare’s grand plays, we’ll discuss how the queen’s legacy has changed beyond her death. 

Julia: We’ll also be joined by Dr. Kerri Lorigan, an Associate Professor at Langston University. With a specialty in Roman Egyptology, Dr. Lorigan will offer insight into these different depictions and how we should be viewing this famous figure. 

Cuddy: Finally, we hope to dissect some issues still contested today: How did Cleopatra die? What was her skin color? All of these questions and more will be answered in “Now as Then” Episode 3.2: Cleopatra. 

Intro Music

Segment 2: Cleopatra Intro & Early Reception (1:44)

Brendan: There’s no better way to introduce Cleopatra than by starting at the very beginning. Born around 69 BCE to Ptolemy XII, she served as the last active ruler of the Ptolemaic Kingdom in Egypt. Following her father’s death, Cleopatra ascended to the throne alongside her younger brother and husband Ptolemy XIII. However, after a power struggle erupted between the two rulers, Cleopatra was exiled to Syria. 

Julia: That’s far from the end of her though! She later returned to Alexandria with an army and gained the support of Julius Caesar, who had invaded Egypt to take over his rival Pompey, and with his support, she regained power in Egypt. At the same time, Cleopatra had an open affair with Caesar and gave birth to their child, Caesarion. This relationship would continue until Caesar’s assassination in 44 BC. At this time, she saw to it that her new brother-husband was also killed.

Cuddy: That’s certainly a lot of death. But isn’t there more to the story?

Brendan: You’re certainly right Cuddy! While Caesar and Cleopatra were a popular pair, the most famous relationship was between her and Marc Antony. After Antony visited Egypt around 41 BCE for military aid, the two fell in love with one another and had three children. This affair angered Caesar’s heir Octavian, who had arranged for Marc Antony to marry his sister instead. As such, Octavian would wage this propaganda war against the couple and cited Cleopatra’s status as a woman and foreigner who wanted Roman power.

Cuddy: Wow, so even when she was alive, Cleopatra’s perception was constantly distorted against her. 

Brendan: Yeah, it really is depressing… Unfortunately, this rivalry between the two rulers would take an even worse turn at the Battle of Actium in 31 BCE. After the fight, Cleopatra’s entire fleet was defeated by Rome, causing them to escape to Alexandria. From here, the fighting continued with Octavian invading Egypt directly. Finally, after falsely hearing that Cleopatra had died, Marc Antony committed suicide in 30 BCE. Soon later, Cleopatra took her own life as well rather than serving as a captive to Octavian. So, amidst a decade of betrayal and love, Cleopatra’s death marked the end of Egyptian rule in Egypt.

Julia: That’s true… While this engaging story has been recited throughout history, it is only one perspective on the queen. Dominated by Western tropes, this standard narrative focuses on dramatization, romance, and power. There are so many aspects of her life that are absent from this story. However, as it is the victors that write history, most of the sources we do have about Cleopatra are not Egyptian, but rather Roman and Greek. Ranging from philosophers to politicians, these powerful figures have rewritten Cleopatra’s legacy to support their agendas. So, let’s focus on a few of these depictions and see how they compare. Specifically, we’ll focus on their depiction of Cleopatra’s death and some of her actions beforehand. Let’s get to it! Wanna start Cuddy? 

Cuddy: Sure! Two of the Romans who wrote about Cleopatra were Plutarch and Cassius Dio, and both of their depictions of the queen follow a similar pattern. In the moments leading up to her death, the two cite Cleopatra’s charisma and cleverness as key attributes. In fact, during her capture by Octavian, both writers illustrate such traits in action. Because Octavian wished to keep Cleopatra alive to showcase his success to Rome, the queen was determined to stop herself from ever leaving Egypt.

Julia At first, she used her charisma to plead with Octavian to let her die. But, after gaining little progress, she reversed her stance and made it appear as if she was eager to live. This approach had much more success, as Octavian loosened restrictions on Cleopatra. 

Cuddy: Exactly! According to the two Romans, this then allowed the queen to lock herself in a room with two servants, dress herself in royal attire, and give herself a noble death. So, in the final moments of her life, Plutarch and Cassius Dio give her some dignity.

Julia: Yeah at least they showed some respect by acknowledging her devotion to Egypt. Still, the scene is tainted with tropes of sexuality and slyness. What’s worse, is that these initial transcriptions have set the basic understanding of Cleopatra today.

Brendan: OK, so after hearing all of these stories. You’re probably asking, how did Cleopatra really die? Well, the answer is: we don’t know! While the works by Plutarch and Cassius Dio, (and other Roman authors) go into speculation, there isn’t a conclusive answer. Some say that she killed herself with a poisonous dagger, while others cite an apsis snake being the prime conspirator. Even more dramatized depictions speculate that she was bitten in the butt or breast (I believe that’s the one Octavian supported). Let’s ask Dr. Lorigan what she thinks: 

Dr. Lorigan (6:44-7:46): She’s a very strong and ambitious woman and I don’t feel like she is the type of woman to give up and poison herself. I think that probably Octavian had her murdered. He controlled the narrative about her death, so these things about the snakebite come actually out in his memoirs after he’s made himself Augustus. He pushes the idea that she got bitten by a snake. But we know that after he found her and she was dead, he had her son Caesarion hunted down: he was the son of Caesar. So now, he had removed all of the threats to the throne. So probably the most credible theory is that he had her killed because honestly, this woman who had fought so hard (she murdered her younger brother, she got married to him and then married her other brother, she dealt with Caesar, she dealt with Marc Antony) to keep Egypt and fight for her position. I just don’t see her as a woman that could’ve committed suicide. 

Brendan: What a hot take huh? In addition to Dr. Lorigan, Ana Rosso from the International Society of the History of Medicine thoroughly researched this topic too. In her report about Cleopatra’s death, she determined that the viper would be the most likely snake to kill her as it is pain-free and easily concealable.^,

Cuddy: That’s true, but even though there is speculation, there is no way for us to know exactly how she died.

Julia: I think it’s unfortunate that the earliest accounts of Cleopatra’s death are once again controlled by non-Egyptians. So many of these writers started the theories we know today. It is really important that we’re aware of their motives when consuming Ancient Egyptian content. We also need to start introducing sources beyond the Western Hemisphere. While the Romans may refute it, being bit in the breast is far from the queen’s legacy. 

Brendan: Fortunately, we do have some sources from Egypt about Cleopatra’s life, and they represent a different side of her. For example, an Egyptian hieroglyph inscribed in stone around 51 BCE cites Cleopatra as a “goddess who loves her father”. Additionally, in the Temple of Dendera, images on the walls depict Cleopatra standing behind her son Caesarion, who would become the next heir to Egypt. Because Hathor acts as a mother to the god Horus, which is embodied in the pharaoh, Cleopatra intentionally depicts herself as the goddess to protect and guide her son as the next ruler.^,

Cuddy: You know, another unique characteristic about that is the height of the two figures. Usually, the mother is depicted as shorter than the son. But, in this illustration, Cleopatra is the same height as Caesarion, showing her dominance in the relationship. These two depictions show a different side of Cleopatra: while Plutarch and Cassius Dio try to degrade the ruler as ruthless and cynical, here we see Cleopatra as both a devoted mother and daughter. Additionally, both sources tie Cleopatra to a godly and superior status, cementing her influence throughout Ancient Egypt. 

Julia: And if you were still unsure about the queen’s dominance, take a look at some Egyptian currency. While earlier coins of the Ptolemaic dynasty depict the man as the leading figure, coins minted after her death specifically showcase Cleopatra on the front and Marc Antony on the back. This could imply that Cleopatra was the more powerful figure in their relationship. 

Brendan: Hopefully, after all of this, you can see that there’s more to Cleopatra than what you’ve seen in modern media. Yes, Cleopatra may have been this clever figure who captivated some very powerful men. But she was also a leader, mother, daughter, philosopher, chemist, and much more. We asked Dr. Lorigan about her thoughts on who Cleopatra was as a person, and this is what she had to say:

Dr Lorigan (10:38-11:34): So she really worked to associate herself with Egypt. Again, she did math, chemistry, and philosophy, and it’s said that she hung out with philosophers all the time, talked to them, and even published books. A lot of the research there says that people in Egypt loved her. She was a great pharaoh, she made connections with the Arab world, and she turned Egypt from basically a bankrupt country that was in a civil war to the richest country in the Mediterranean. Because she was such a shrewd businessperson. And she kept Egypt free from Roman rule. Egypt was the very last nation to fall to the Romans when they sought to take over everything. She worked very hard, and that should be her legacy, not this woman who slept with a bunch of men and got very powerful.

Brendan: Well I think Dr. Lorigan perfectly summarized Cleopatra’s true identity. But regardless of origin, her image has been constantly molded to fit different agendas. While the Romans wanted to further their dominance and authority, the Egyptians wanted to uphold her status as an amazing pharaoh. So, it’s really important to look beyond the stereotypes we see in modern media. In seconds, we’re now going to fast forward a few hundred years (focusing on the Medieval & Renaissance eras) and see how these depictions and agendas changed, how they’ve stayed the same, and if there is [sic] any differences between the East and West. Spoiler alert: there are. Cuddy, take it away!

Segment 3: Eastern vs. Western Depictions of Cleopatra (12:20)

Cuddy: Yeah, so given all the intrigue and speculation regarding Cleopatra’s life and death, it’s easy to make up stories about her life and make inaccurate cultural depictions of her. And oh boy, did Europeans do that. During the Middle Ages and Renaissance, Cleopatra as a subject of fact and fiction exploded in the Western cultural imagination. 

Julia: In Elizabethan times, one of the most famous authors in English history wrote the seminal work on Cleopatra: Antony and Cleopatra, the play by Shakespeare. Lauded since its inception, this play was first performed in 1607, but the first written copy we have comes from 1623. 

Cuddy: The play depicts Cleopatra as much more than the one-dimensional caricature of femininity depicted in most works of the time. Indeed, Cleopatra is widely regarded as the most complex and developed female character in all of Shakespeare’s works. She presents a multifaceted interplay between a seductive manipulator and a powerful opportunist. 

Brendan: Shakespeare explores the dynamics of power and love, and how these forces intertwine in the lives of Cleopatra and Antony. Cleopatra is not just a lover; she is a queen with her own ambitions and agency. Her relationship with Antony is depicted as one of mutual passion and political alliance, rather than a one-sided affair. This portrayal reflects both an interest in Cleopatra herself and the broader Renaissance fascination with the classical world, where figures like Cleopatra were reimagined through the lens of contemporary values and ideas.

Julia: Yeah, that play has had a lasting impact on how these historical figures are perceived. It has influenced numerous artistic and literary works, and its portrayal of Cleopatra has contributed significantly to the enduring fascination with her character. Indeed, in an 1867 copy of the play we have here at the John Hay Library, the editor’s note states that “[Antony and Cleopatra] is too vast, too gorgeous, to be approached without some prostration of the understanding…We have read it again and again, and the impression which it leaves again and again is that of wonder.”

Cuddy: But people didn’t just reissue Antony and Cleopatra, and although it was certainly the most popular cultural rendition of Cleopatra up through the 19th century, it was not the only one. Another prominent depiction comes from a short story entitled “Une nuit de Cléopâtre,” by Théophile Gautier, a French writer and poet from the early to mid-19th century. This work definitely puts a lot less emphasis on, shall we say, historical accuracy. 

Brendan: Absolutely, so the work begins with Cleopatra admitting to her servant that she is having a bit of an existential crisis about her rule of Egypt, and only love can rid her of her sadness. Once again, Cleopatra is shown as simply a love-obsessed ruler who is less interested in ruling a country than in her various pursuits with men. A lover arrives named Meïamoun, who admires her and her beauty. Cleopatra decides to entertain his love for the night but is drawn back to reality when Antony arrives, at which point she poisons Meïamoun, leaving him to die.

Cuddy: We got to take a look at a translation of this book that had illustrations by Paul Avril, which is a pseudonym for ​​Édouard-Henri Avril, an erotic illustrator. Our copy was published sometime in the 1890s and was some of the most overtly sexualized content about Cleopatra from this time period. Many of the illustrations depict Cleopatra using typical Orientalist tropes, such as small clothing, belly dancing, and seductive acts. Evidently, the popular fascination with Cleopatra carried over into the objectification of women common during this time period.

Julia: Something to note about this copy is the time period during which it was written; you see, the original text comes from before the scramble for Africa when the Ottoman Eyalet of Egypt still technically ruled Egypt, but the illustrations and publication of the copy we have is from after Britain fully controlled Egypt. The illustrations reflect this, depicting Cleopatra as subservient to the outsider who comes to court her and should be a reflection of the culture surrounding Egypt during this period. 

Brendan: Exactly! The orientalist themes of subjugation and inferiority are part of the larger pattern of Western behavior when using Cleopatra’s story. Whether it be Plutarch in the 1st century or artists in the 19th century, Cleopatra as a figure was used to further a political agenda, instead of being remembered in her own right. 

Cuddy: These depictions range from complex and intricate to simplistic and demeaning. Yet, they all present Cleopatra as an object attached to Antony rather than her own independent person. Although the focus on Mark Antony has dwindled over time, the view of Cleopatra as a lesser ruler who tried to distract and manipulate those around her has been cemented in the modern perception of Cleopatra and resulted from these various cultural depictions during the formative period of modern Western culture.

Brendan: Now that we’ve looked at Cleopatra’s perception beyond ancient times, you may think that the rest of her legacy has been generalized to fit this Western mold. However, that is far from the truth. Just like how Ancient Egypt represents the queen in a different light, the Arab world’s reception of the queen also starkly contrasts the works from Europe. Whether it is due to a lack of translations or simply European discrimination (we don’t really know), these works are often overshadowed by the more dramatic depictions in the West. 

Julia: You’re right. In the book Egyptology: The Missing Millennium, Egyptologist Okasha El Daly illuminates the forgotten part of Egyptian study. Using a variety of secondary sources from Islamic authors, he argues that Western humanities undermine the native perspective of Ancient Egypt. From the medieval age to the rise of colonialism, these perspectives create a depiction of Egypt that is more representative of its inhabitants. Specifically, in his segment about Cleopatra, El Daly emphasizes an absence of any seductive or sexual representations. Interesting right? 

Cuddy: Absolutely! Whereas the Europeans depicted her very romantically, Cleopatra is praised by the Arabs for her accomplishments as a scholar. For example, one book written in 690 CE by an Egyptian bishop describes a Cleopatra who worked tirelessly in the interests of her people. Labeled as the “wisest amongst women,” the queen initiated many public works throughout Egypt. 

Brendan: Particularly, Cleopatra reconstructed Alexandria by converting water into land with dikes. She even installed a canal to bring excess water to the city. These immense projects parallel the praise by Ancient Egyptians. While we may not have a lot of these sources, they unlock key info into the queen’s past as both a ruler and politician. 

Julia: So, what’s the takeaway from this? To show that there are so many different depictions of Cleopatra throughout history. Although this perspective by the Middle East provides excellent information, it is often discarded in pre-modern and modern depictions. 

Cuddy: We posit that the reason for this is portraying Cleopatra as an intelligent and strong woman with political acuity would have been disruptive to the image of both Egypt and women that was propped up in the West as truth during the period when these works were written. Therefore, it was politically expedient to instead claim that Cleopatra was a manipulative, helpless ruler who used her charm to gain any power she could. 

Julia: Exactly. Instead of being shown in her own right, she was made a secondary figure tied to the men in her life. The narrative about Cleopatra has been controlled for so long by various groups that we don’t have a broad range of perspectives on Cleopatra. This has done very real and tangible harm over time: we talked to Dr. Lorigan about this, and this is what she had to say: 

Dr. Lorigan (20:20-21:00): We don’t have people that really even know about her writing, [sic] writing about her. Or who wanted to try to put her in a good light. And later, as you have these powers like the Roman Empire taking over, and then later the European empires, you have this colonialism and racism taking shape and we are, like, pushing this colonialist narrative, and social Darwinism, that kind of seeks to erase all these voices of the people in the colonized country [sic] because we need to see them as unintelligent and inferior. So, we can’t look at their scholarly sources and things like that.

Brendan: When we compare this narrative to the Eastern sources from the time, the more accurate version of history is clear. But even now, we don’t hear about Cleopatra’s political prowess and intelligence. This tired trope of Cleopatra in relation to Caesar and Mark Antony is used again and again to the point where it’s all that most people think of her as nowadays. But the real question is, how do we think of her nowadays? 

Cuddy: I’m so glad you asked! Let’s talk about how Cleopatra’s image has shifted in the past century. In the age of social media, her popularity has changed in many ways. While past representations remain, there is this new mix of depictions by different groups throughout the globe. Ranging from Europe to Africa, there’s certainly a lot to talk about, right Julia? 

Segment 4: Modern Representations of Cleopatra (21:45)

Julia: Absolutely! What do you think of when you hear the name Cleopatra? 

Cuddy: Well, probably a woman wearing gold, maybe some dark eyeliner. Someone mysterious, maybe alluring and seductive. 

Julia: Exactly! Her name rings a bell. A quick search on the online movie database IMDb yields 71 titles tagged with Cleopatra. Whether those are full-blown movies made about her, like the 1963 film Cleopatra directed by Joseph L. Mankiewicz, or if she’s a character, like in the 2005 Scooby-Doo movie, Where’s My Mummy?, Cleopatra’s story has often been repacked and retold in film and media. Cleopatra holds a prominent place in Western culture, and the recognizability of her likeness has made her a highly commercialized figure. 

Brendan: Absolutely! The 1963 movie tells the story of Cleopatra amid a changing Egypt under intruding Roman influences. Cleopatra’s entrance into the film is a bold one, rolling out of a red carpet dressed in red after being presented as a gift to Caesar. Immediately, Cleopatra employs something of flirtation and emboldened confidence to achieve her goal of becoming Queen, even asking Caesar outright for the title.

Julia: Yeah, she is acknowledged for her intelligence, wit, and proficiency as a ruler, yet her sexuality is brought into the conversation but to highlight her domineering nature, “taking lover by the number over names”.

Brendan: Yeah, in this modern, Western portrayal, Cleopatra’s prowess is extremely distinct. With the retrospective knowledge of Cleopatra as a Queen among Egypt’s few Queens and Egypt’s last ruler, the film juxtaposes her masculinizing and feminizing features. 

Cuddy: Cleopatra herself is played by Elizabeth Taylor, a prominent Hollywood actress who at her death was memorialized and described by The New York Times as a “beauty incarnate”. Through Elizabeth Taylor, this association and classification of Cleopatra with beauty is created. 

Julia: Whether she is lounging about in the baths or strategizing her next move, Cleopatra is adorned in colorful and beautiful costumes with striking black eyeliner. Even the set design of her scenes has extra opulence: the boat she takes to Rome is mast with red sails, women lounging about in colorful dresses, and Cleopatra is dramatically veiled behind white curtains sitting between two cat statues. 

Brendan: Yeah, there is this mystical, untouchable, otherworldliness to Cleopatra, and whether that sets her above or on par with Caesar and Mark Antony, their influences take prominence in her story. She becomes romantically involved with Caesar, bearing him a child. In scenes where she speaks with Mark Antony, he holds jealousy towards Cleopatra’s relationship with Caesar. Caesar comes between many conversations, and Cleopatra seems to have the skill of bringing out Mark Antony’s vulnerabilities and insecurities regarding his envy towards Caesar.

Julia: Exactly, this romance arc becomes pivotal to the plot, with politics and relationships blurring the lines. Whether that is Cleopatra crying on the floor pleading with Mark Antony or the two characters dramatically slapping each other in fits of anger, Mark Antony even admits that the reason he came to Egypt was to follow Cleopatra, his “love”. But, ultimately, the drama of love in Cleopatra’s life is the most distinct and marketable aspect for a film at a whopping four hours long. 

Cuddy: Whew, I get tired just from listening to this description. What about more simple and digestible portrayals of Cleopatra? I seem to remember from my childhood that she was part of a TV special.

Julia: You remember correctly! Scooby-Doo! in Where’s My Mummy? takes on a very different tone for Cleopatra. Being a children’s movie, the focus shifts from the romance surrounding Cleopatra’s death to her tomb and burial. Cleopatra is similarly portrayed as a strong and determined woman, yet frightening as she casts a curse upon Egyptian treasure. Even in her character design, she is less flashy with a harder appearance and a deep voice. 

Brendan: Cleopatra’s life isn’t the focal point of this movie, but her recognizability is still utilized with the choice of making her lost tomb the driving force of the plot. Cleopatra takes on more mythological and fantastical attributes, and her resulting character is a mixture of Egyptian and Egyptomania tropes: utilizing the “power of Isis” and rising as an undead mummy to protect her “riches”.

Cuddy: Both films cover this broad, stereotypical characterization of Cleopatra and have subsequently shaped many generations’ perception of her as mysterious, beautiful, fearful, and lustful. 

Julia: Hmmm. Are there any other forms of modern media that follow this depiction? 

Brendan: Absolutely, and I bet you all will know this one. In Katy Perry’s 2014 music video for her song “Dark Horse,” she takes on a version of Cleopatra, “Katy Patra.” Katy Perry sits on a throne in a colorfully pink Egyptian set judging gifts of various suitors that she subsequently rejects and curses into other objects. At the climax of the song, she stands upon a pyramid taking on the form of an open-winged Isis. 

Julia: Oh my god I remembered watching that when I was a kid! Well, there is no doubt that Cleopatra has become such a prominent and recognizable figure in Western media and her portrayal has been constantly reprised in several forms all owing to characteristics of her beauty, mystery, or allure. However, there has been one especially polarizing debate. 

Cuddy: Yep, and it’s been a hotly contested one! In the center of her claim by Western culture, is the contention towards the color of her skin. Was she White or was she Black, or something else? Why does it matter?

Julia: Well, in the visual mediums described earlier, the two films and music video, Cleopatra is depicted by fair-skinned individuals of Caucasian descent. Even in the animated movie, Cleopatra is drawn with very fair skin and clearly white features. But how can we know for certain? Can we know for certain? 

Brendan: Like other aspects of her identity, the color of her skin is quite ambiguous. Cleopatra ruled over an African country, Egypt, but came from Macedonian Greek ancestry during the Ptolemaic reign. We know that Cleopatra’s grandmother was a concubine, and her mother was unknown. 

Cuddy: With this being such a complex topic, we wanted to ask Dr. Lorigan what she thought. 

Dr. Lorigan (28:13-28:56) Okay, so we know that Cleopatra is from a Macedonian-Greek royal family, on her father’s side. We don’t know who her mother was. So, we know at least half of her heritage is this white, European heritage. However, barring any future information we find (or something like that), we really cannot say for certain. However, when we look at her, we can say (like the people in Egypt, they weren’t really horrified by this) that she is Egyptian, and that’s how they see her. They see her as an Egyptian queen and not representative of white culture, or black culture, but taking her on the basis of who she was. 

Brendan: So, we don’t know for sure, but one thing is for certain: she was an Egyptian.

Julia: Like Dr. Lorigan was saying, Cleopatra exists at a very interesting time in history pulled by many different forces between Africa and Europe, and with her transport to the West, the narrative has been overwhelming that she was White. 

Cuddy: We’ve seen this from the very beginning of cinema. In a movie poster from the 1940s for Bernard Shaw’s Caesar and Cleopatra, Cleopatra is portrayed by a White woman, Vivien Leigh, and surrounding her are more women who have fair-skin, Caucasian features. However, the people serving Cleopatra in the image, holding green leaves, have a much darker complexion. 

Brendan: But why is it that Cleopatra has consistently been portrayed as White? Shouldn’t her being Egyptian be more marketable, given American Egyptomania?

Julia: Well, Cleopatra’s assumed whiteness seems to elevate her. Maybe it makes her seem like a better ruler or a more formidable opponent or ally in the Egyptian-Roman conflicts that characterized her life. 

Cuddy: Maybe it is the implied Whiteness that comes from recognizing and labeling her as white based on her Greek identity. The fact that she was Egyptian was projected onto a whitewashed version of her identity, which has made her so popular in Western media and culture. 

Segment 5: Conclusion (30:13)

Brendan: Well, either way, you gotta admit, Cleopatra has taken the world by storm. 

Cuddy: From the earliest depictions of her death to “Katy Patra,” the last queen of Egypt is ever evolving. These depictions spanned across periods, regions, and cultures, but aren’t presented equally enough to listeners like you. 

Julia: True, but unfortunately, most of the depictions we see are dominated by how the West views Cleopatra. The focus on her seductive features and sexual references undermine [sic] her importance as a ruler and political figure. So, it’s important to view Cleopatra through a multifaceted lens. As discussed in this podcast, there’s so much more to this empowering figure. But something we haven’t talked about is why. Why is it that her legacy is constantly manipulated? What makes her such a powerful tool, in both a political and cultural sense?

Cuddy: Well, I think that Cleopatra is so influential that her accomplishments either threaten or uphold those who choose to portray her. So, it was best for different groups to manipulate the queen in ways that favored them.

Brendan: Yeah, I think that’s definitely prevalent in the context of Rome and how they wanted to ruin her legacy by making her more dependent on others. Each Greco-Roman depiction can be traced back to the politics of their time, and they all use her story to spread a message. 

Julia: Absolutely, I feel that the idea of Cleopatra has overtaken who she really was as a person. Today, so many of the narratives we see are motivated by either colonialism, Afrocentrism, or something else entirely. Cleopatra seems to be more or less a name melded and morphed to fulfill an agenda, and that does real damage to her legacy.

Cuddy: Totally agree. That’s why we should see Cleopatra as an accomplished leader rather than as a tool to support a given movement or set of values. 

Brendan: Well, per Ancient Egyptian traditions, as her name continues to be spoken, she will continue to live on. As the living, it is our responsibility to ensure that this legacy is presented accurately, using a range of perspectives that have been suppressed up until this point. 

Cuddy: We may not be able to replicate her life entirely…

Julia: Or know the events of her death…

Brendan: Or the color of her skin…

Cuddy: But if we work to separate the idea of Cleopatra from the person Cleopatra, we can better understand Ancient Egypt as a whole. 

Julia: Well, that’s all we have for you today. Thanks for joining us for another episode of “Now and Then!” We hope that you all enjoyed this deep dive into Cleopatra and her legacy.

Cuddy: We want to give a huge thanks to our wonderful professor, Dr. Robyn Price, for aid throughout the research process; Izzy Uliasz, for helping us at the Rockefeller Library Recording Studio; Karen Bouchard, for her help at the John Hay Library Special Collections; and of course, Dr. Lorigan, for being our wonderful guest on today’s episode. 

Brendan: We would also like to thank YOU the listener for tuning in with us today. 

All: Until next time!

Outro music

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